# Energy Economist Catherine Wolfram Shares her Insights on COP30 and the Prospects for Climate Coalitions in the Newest Episode of “Environmental Insights” December 09, 2025 **CAMBRIDGE MA. –** Esteemed energy economist [Catherine Wolfram](https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/catherine-wolfram) shared her thoughts on the [30th Conference of the Parties of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change](https://unfccc.int/cop30) (COP30) and on the prospects for climate coalitions to significantly reduce CO₂ emissionsin the newest episode of“[Environmental Insights: Discussions on Policy and Practice from the Harvard Environmental Economics Program](https://soundcloud.com/environmentalinsights/).” The podcast is produced by the [Harvard Environmental Economics Program](http://www.heep.hks.harvard.edu/). Listen to the interview [here.](https://on.soundcloud.com/6W3tQUBnwfiXsAP5JS) Hosted by [Robert N. Stavins](https://www.hks.harvard.edu/faculty/robert-stavins), A.J. Meyer Professor of Energy and Economic Development at [Harvard Kennedy School](http://www.hks.harvard.edu/) and director of the [Harvard Environmental Economics Program](http://www.heep.hks.harvard.edu/) and the [Harvard Project on Climate Agreements](https://www.belfercenter.org/project/harvard-project-climate-agreements), Environmental Insights is intended to promote public discourse on important issues at the intersection of economics and environmental policy. Wolfram, the William Barton Rogers Professor of Energy Economics at the [MIT Sloan School of Management](https://mitsloan.mit.edu/), spent several days at COP30 in Belém, Brazil last month, concluding that while the negotiators did not close the conference with a strong statement opposing fossil fuel use, the fact that no other countries joined the U.S. in withdrawing from the [Paris Climate Agreement](https://unfccc.int/process-and-meetings/the-paris-agreement) was a positive outcome. “I think in some ways Brazil pulled a victory from the jaws of defeat in that way,” she said. “Not having the U.S. there really hurt things \[because\] the U.S. is usually a force against the Saudi Arabias and the Russias and can help get stronger statements on phasing out fossil fuels or climate ambition, whatever it is into the text. And so that was one of the results of not having the U.S. there. But as I say, not by any means the worst result that we could have seen.” Wolfram, who co-leads the [Global Climate Policy Project at Harvard and MIT](https://salatainstitute.harvard.edu/research-initiatives/the-global-climate-policy-project/) (GCPP), observed that Brazil's [Open Coalition on Compliance Carbon Markets](https://cop30.br/en/news-about-cop30/carbon-market-coalition-welcomes-18-member-countries-at-cop30), launched in Belém during the COP, aligns nicely with the research being conducted at GCPP. “While the COPs and the Paris Climate Agreement are important, we need more. We need to be thinking about additional ways to push forward at a global scale on climate. And so, \[researchers at GCPP\] have several verticals thinking about geoengineering, thinking about climate finance, thinking about industrial policy, but the vertical where we've had the most impact and made the most progress so far is the vertical on climate and trade. So yeah, as you say, we were absolutely thrilled to see Brazil's declaration on the Open Coalition on Compliance Carbon Markets.” Wolfram and her team at GCPP recently released [a detailed report](https://salatainstitute.harvard.edu/building-a-climate-coalition-gcpp-flagship-report/) intended to help policymakers envision what a climate coalition could look like. “One of our scenarios was the conventional scenario \[in which\] every country to join the coalition would have to have a minimum carbon price, and there would be one minimum. But then another scenario that we outlined…allowed for graduated admission criteria. So, the low- and middle-income countries could get into the coalition at say one third the carbon price that a high-income country would need to get into the coalition and middle-income countries could join for two thirds,” she said. “I do think that it helps recognize fairness issues and fairness challenges so that you're letting low- and middle-income countries essentially use more of the remaining carbon budget if they have a lower carbon price to get in. And I think it helps make this a little bit more realistic than some of the stricter interpretations of the climate club where everyone has to have the same price.” In order to entice low- and middle-income countries to join a climate coalition and set prices on carbon, Wolfram remarked, there need to be additional levers in place to support them. “We thought about a kind of targeted climate finance. We thought about having free trade and the inputs to decarbonization… I think the other thing that we did to try to make this actionable and have some chance of getting off the ground in the near term was to focus on a couple industries,” she said. “There's the [European Union Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism](https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/carbon-border-adjustment-mechanism_en) (C-BAM) that's starting in several weeks, and that is initially targeting the aluminum, steel, fertilizer, and cement industries. And so, in our report, we imagined that coalition membership initially just requires carbon prices for those industries.” The C-BAM model can be a very effective tool for inciting climate action on a national or regional level, Wolfram argued. “Turkey is a prime example. Turkey has explicitly said that because of the C-BAM, they themselves are pursuing an emissions trading system. And they're even thinking about enacting a C-BAM. Once you're charging carbon prices to your domestic industry, it makes sense to think about leveling the playing field for them and making sure that imports face that carbon price as well,” she said. “There are other examples of countries that have either introduced carbon prices or expanded their carbon pricing systems. For instance, China, a huge, huge emitter, especially in the C-BAM sectors, expanded their carbon pricing system from covering just the electricity sector to covering also steel, aluminum, and cement… And Brazil, India, lots and lots of countries are planning to implement carbon prices.” Wolfram’s interview is the seventh episode during 2025 in the [Environmental Insights](https://soundcloud.com/environmentalinsights/) series, with additional episodes scheduled to drop each month. “Environmental Insights is intended to inform and educate listeners about important issues relating to an economic perspective on developments in environmental policy, including the design and implementation of market-based approaches to environmental protection,” said Stavins. “We speak with accomplished Harvard colleagues, other academics, and practitioners who are working on solving some of the most challenging public problems we face.” Environmental Insights is hosted on [SoundCloud](https://soundcloud.com/environmentalinsights) and is also available on [Amazon Music](https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/cd70f458-c1f4-4f11-bf64-c9e0dc71ee5b), [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/environmental-insights-conversations-on-policy-practice/id1482761966), [Pocket Casts](https://pca.st/keck3o78), [Podcast Addict](https://www.podcastaddict.com/podcast/3374959), and [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/6WBWmeXTH90a3DoOYpXlhX). **LINK TO PODCAST:** [**https://on.soundcloud.com/6W3tQUBnwfiXsAP5JS**](https://on.soundcloud.com/6W3tQUBnwfiXsAP5JS) See also:- [ 2025 ](/news-year/2025) Share on:- [ Facebook ](#) - [ Twitter ](#) - [ Linkedin ](#)